Leo I am Very Sorry To Disagree...
With You...But I will not support a monoply,taking over an open ,grass roots.opreating system,EVER nor will i cheer them for their gluttonous desire to own and controll the web,as we know it today.
Sorry M8 but You really should know your enimies.
Jim
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those who wander are lost ....
Im with James on this one. AOL is trying to become the next Microsfot in the Internet Age. Buying Time-Warner was a big red flag and now this.
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Boooo. I was totally disgusted when they acquired TW, now this, and you're cheering for the ego maniacs? Next thing you know, SOB might want to buy out MS.
Life is an unrelenting comedy. Therein lies the tragedy of it. - Martin Stillwater
Dude, check out my DVD Collection!
AOL Is an evil plot by Steve Jobs to reconquer the world
Pretty much Guarantee a quick and complete Death to that form of Linux!!
AOL and Red Hat!!
I Hated em Before
I Hate em Now
I'll Hate em tomorrow.
Evry frikin Time...One of my customers brings a crippled OS in, they said "But AOL's doc said it was non intrusive".... :nuke2:
Can't wait to see how good they can screw up Red hat
I'm still on the fence on this one. Monopoly=EVIL, AOL=EVIL, Linux=Good, but it has it's downfalls. I'm on my second distribution now and so far SuSE beats Mandrake. Mandrake is easier to install, but their website is difficult, and they don't have an index in their manuals. SuSE has a better website and 'INDEX' their manuals. Red Hat, I looked at, but they didn't have much to offer except for commercial users. The problem with Linux is that they don't have the programs that desktop users want. First you have to download the drivers (and rpm them) from Nvidia to use Geforce 2 cards to their potential. This is because Nvidia doesn't subscribe to the 'Open Source license', of course I really can't blame them. Then you can't play a DVD on Linux as the CSS doesn't want their encryption being 'Open Source'. It's that proprietary programs and encryption schemes don't marry well with the 'Open Source' movement. There are merits to both protecting the fruits of ones' labor and the 'Open Source' ideal. It's a tough one to call at this moment, but I'm sure some 'EVIL' will enlighten me.
BTW, Bits, Where I work you have to have approval from IT to install AOL software, in advance and written. Of course, we have a twenty page document covering e-mails also, and e-mails are all backed up by the company and subject to their inspection. That's why you will never see me here while at work.
The only thing better than playing the game, is talking about it.
Hmmm...
I'm leaning towards the majority on this one, but one will see before it is all done. There is definately a coup plot by AOL here... so I don't see AOL owning Red Hat as a good thing, in that they would exploit it, bastardize it, and rape it... the only "good" thing about it would be in it's marketing.. Getting the word out to John Q Public Moron. But as FBTV said... (I won't repeat, cause you can read one post up) Linux won't have that edge with desktops while it's open source, it just don't mesh right. But whatever, I'm droppin Red Hat on a box this weekend. So I'll be on here full force askin you bums for assistance!
BeeZ
If AOL bought Red Hat which i doubt. Wouldn't they have to abide by the OPEN Source Rules.
If they did then AOL's software would have to be open source as well correct?
"Z"
Don't get me wrong. I am one of those types who won't even touch an AOL junk mail CD without rubber gloves. This is a mute point about AOL-Redhat now anyway, as it appears nothing is happening.
Well anyway, as odious as AOL Time Warner may be, they don't have the power to currupt Linux. Linux, by it's very nature is nowhere and and everywhere simultaneously. Even though AOL or some equivalent might bastardize a particular flavor of Linux, that is simply all it would mean - one flavor. OK, so Company B ruined peppermint. Someone else makes green peppermint that is even better.
I think someone with big bucks IS needed to take Linux beyond the servers and hobbyists.
Now, let's talk about Lindows!
Linux is moving in the right direction, it's just a bit difficult now, but much better than in the past. RPM has opened up a lot of things, as I'm too lazy to compile and make source code. But then on some things it may be easier, as all the Linux Distro's seem to have different directories or file names for the same files. I must commend Nvidia (from my point of view) for making their RPM driver files for all the major distros. Even though the Linux Community is divided on their insistance that their drivers are not open source.
I just want to play my (ahem) movies, whether mpeg or avi on Linux. At the moment I can play mpeg but haven't found an avi player. I want a player that can play DVD's (searching the www now for that, it's that copy protection thing, though Xine is promising). I want a player that can take the video in on my Asus V7700 and put the NTSC composite in into a window (so I can watch the news while I am typing here). And a decent browser. I am working on all these things but haven't worked it out yet. As for everything else Linux does what I need. Gimp is decent and good for photos. Star Office is good for invoices. The penguin games are a little lame, but I don't play that much. Playing with Samba now, it's going to take some time. And as with most software, the documentation is always a problem. With SuSE I installed all the 2300 programs (LOL) but I can't figure out what 2250 programs do, they just spin for a while and dissapear.
I really admire pioneers like you who take the time and mental capitol to help move innovation along. Your and others' efforts will someday improve life for all of us. As for me, I'm just not interested in an operating system that has to be constructed, compiled, and engineered after one acquires it; I'd prefer that to be down BEFORE I get it. I've already got my hands full with hardware - upgrading, new system building, et cetera. I don't have time for another hobby.
I'm just a wimp who is interested in Linux, that is, when a Linux distribution can be popped into the CD tray and is as easy to install as WinXP.
Me too Leo, me tooOriginally posted by leonardo
I'm just a wimp who is interested in Linux, that is, when a Linux distribution can be popped into the CD tray and is as easy to install as WinXP.
One thing though, providing you read a little and take notes, most Linux distros are easy to install. It's what you with 'em afterwards that's baffling me
When I bought my first Linux Distro. It was RED HAT i think 2.5 or something like that..
WHen you had to make all the partitions your self..
You know, one for mem swap o'say 250 megs of Hda1, 1000 of the root directory and some for the USR patition as well.
Back then I installed it and then was like ok WHAT NOW?
This was 2-3 years ago and I couldn't even get me modem to work proper.
Now, Present time! Linux is like a professor told me (Math Pro) ITS THE DUMBING DOWN OF AMERICA. I mean they have to make it Idiot PROOF so that it will be as easy as Windows is now.
Why do you think windows is such an attractive buy to the Average user. You stick the Disk in and watch it do its thing.
For Linux to be an OS for a Average user they need to do the following.
Make if Dumb Proof.
Until then majority of people will be buying Windows Products.
Linux is "JUST TO HARD" for the average PC user. I get questions all the time on how to do simple task with WINDOWS. WTF would people buy an OS that is harder to work with than WINDOWS?
Linux takes a Skill LEVEL that most don't have. It takes a GET IT DONE attitude to learn the APP.
Most dont have that either.
I am talking generally also. Not just american's are lazy anymore. People in general are.
"Z"
I would say that before Win2000 and WinXP, MAC and Linux had a valid clarion call of claiming superiority, in that stability was available for everyone. That claim no longer distinguishes them from Windows.Why do you think windows is such an attractive buy to the Average user. You stick the Disk in and watch it do its thing.
What is wrong with sticking in a disk and watching it do it's thing? How many of us can/will re-roof our house, repair the cloths washer, overhaul the transmission in our car. Have we been dumbed down? I mean, why not have an automobile with an anolog distributor, and exposed rocker arms! Wow, we could reset the valvel lash and set the points on a weekly basis! And talk about do-it-yourself and basic stability, how's about have a manual crank? Never worry about the starter or starter solenoid unit failing! Darn, that computer in my Blazer keeps things running smoothly for 50,000 miles or more at a time.
(Zemuss, I'm not making fun of you; just using your post to illustrate my point.)
The average user wants a computer that starts up, runs everything moderately well, and doesn't require of her knowledge of technology, other than how to use the machine.
If Windows keeps improving, Linux will have improve tremendoulsy before has any significant desktop share whatsoever.
WinXP. The average user, assuming his computer has fairly up-to-date hardware, can pop in the XP disk and expect reliable service after an easy install - or at least after the second install. Now, those folks, like you and me, who are not content with common denominator performance, can tweak WinXP to their hearts delight. We can also setup a SOHO network if we choose. Now that's a very good OS, wouldn't you say. Oh and yes, WinXP configured correctly is very stable and fast.
(Don't get started anyone. This is NOT going to be a debate on MS pricing or business practices.)
I will consider Linux' fans claims of scalability when Linux becomes a flexible, easy to use desktop computer -- and I really hope that happens!
Sorry Leo, but I agree with zemuss and his professor. America (and the world save a few here and there, and a lot of China) have gotten lazy and fat. We made these innovations in the name of technology and ergonomics, but because of that we have ourselves lost site of the reason we did that. The pursuit of knowledge. Back in the day people were inquisitive, they wanted to know what went on behind the scenes, how things worked. Nowadays people just want things to do the work for them. I know a crap load of people who won't get up to change the channel on the tele because they can't find the remote, they just sit and watch what's on. We have grown lazy in our technology. Making things harder for the sake or being hard is stupid, but not taking the time to read a bit, and figure something out is what has become standard fare. and it's big corps with power like M$ that help that ideology along. Watch "They Live" it's a science fiction flick, but it does at it's root have an important message.
BeeZ
I have no issue with Linux being made "dumber" providing it doesn't affect the speed and stability of it. (for those using a gui)
I can't see the reason of people who don't like things made easy.
To go back to Leo example with the car - is having a wind up window better than an electric?
People who don't like Linux made easier - why do they want to stop it progressing - is that not letting it run it's development path. Like who ever made anything to be difficult, or not progress on purpose. Damn - I think we should all be using an abacus to add up as using calculators is rotting our brains!
(now before anybody says something - I'm a firm beliver in arithematic - one should know how to maully do arithematic with pen and paper before calculators are introduced)
YES it is. You know why? If you introduce Electric to water what happens?Originally posted by Techvillage
To go back to Leo example with the car - is having a wind up window better than an electric?
Electric Fails correct. YEA I THINK SO.
So if your in a car with electirc windows you have a problem if you suddenly find yourself in a Lake! ZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP no more electric windows going up or Down.
"Wind Up" windows is a manual thing.
Yea, i know there are ways to get "AROUND" the Electric. I.E Knock out Device. But why get one??
"Z"
Mate if you car was in lake - nothing would work
Just thought of another Zemus style argument - we have just had a 10 trilliton nuclear bomb landed - as you know that takes out most elctronic transistorised circuits, about the only that works is any item with good old valves in it, along with killing all but cockroaches, but never mind - we have manual wind up windows in our car, tough luck for folks with electric window, suckers - na na na nah
Hey Tech. I was making a point! NO NEED for Sarcasm.
Your right thought nothing in your car would work accept there is a difference. In a Wind up window car atleast you will be able to get out. Just have to wait until the pressure equalizes..
Enough said..
No need to Respond with PUN!
LATERS
"Z"
I'd have to say here that people who complain that linux shouldnt be made easier because it would make people lazy... god DAMN are you talking crap. Computers are a tool, and the easier they are to use then the easier it is to let people get on with what many people would term REAL work... that is what they want to GET DONE.
Are you honestly saying that given a choice between 2 OS's with equal power and performance and one was easy to use and one was hard you'd want the harder one ?? People who claim that computers should be hard to use for the sake of the good or the people are nothing but elitest snobs who want to look down their noses at other people. People have different skills - saying that people who can't install Linux are lazy is just not true, they just arent skilled in that area, should we exculde them from using computers? Should we exclude non-mechanics from driving cars? Non-pilots from traveling on planes?
*Sheesh*
"I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell"
Hi Z - which of my 3 smilies implying I was joking did ya miss buddy?
It was mentioned above in one of the posts that people have become extremely lazy, that some people might not even change the channel on the Telly if no remote is available. True, but not for the greater part of the population. Let's face it, life and it's accoutrements (material possessios) is more complex than it used to be. Not everyone has the time to be an expert in all the systems in their household. I have some mechanic's skills that save me bucks with my older cars (70K, and 120K miles). I SURE WISH I had more skills. So am I supposed to quit working so I can start tinkering with my cars more? Or perhaps, I should avoid the family more (computer already steals much time) and go in the garage and disassemble components under the hood to improve my knowledge?
Actually, I am a fix-it kind of guy. Favorite store is Home Depot. But there is a limit as to how much I have time to learn. It's not a matter of motivation, it's a matter of balanced living.
My next door neighbor couldn't change the oil in his car or swap RAM in his computer if his life depended on it. But guess what, he spends his time working late (not his choice), and cooking near-gourmet meals for his family. I really doubt that he has any desire to tweak a computer system, be it the hardware or software. And all the power to my friend. And.....ah, enough - I'm becoming redundant. Sorry guys.
AOL plus Linux. Ick! It might benefit the Linux movement, but were I in the market for Linux, I'd certainly look elsewhere. (I think MS shines if contrasted to to AOL.)
Ok OK! Jesh.. Come on GUys! DAMN! Talk about ANTI-ZEMUSS today!
I am not the most "ELITE" person when it comes to computers. Mucks is much smarter and IA know more programming languages. Also BITS know a hella lot more than me in Mainframes and probally Programming as well.
DID I SAY THAT ALL MY OPINIONS ARE TRUE and YOU GUYS SHOULD FOLLOW THE CODE OF ZEMUSS???
I simply stated my opinion OK! sorry i thought that is what this board is about.For Pete's sake you guys are making my Head Spin
The reason I disagree with the DUMBING DOWN OF LINUX is simply because if they make it any easier where is the learning curve?
If they make it any easier why keep it open source? so people can see how you did it?
Whats the point? Why let people see code? Decompile??
Why! When all they care about is that it works, It Boots, It Prints my reports, AND OH BOY It Runs my GAMES! YEEEEEEEPPEEEEEEE.
Its stable and quite frankly thats all i care about?
DUH! POINT AND CLICK POINT AND CLICK>
Come on people.
Ah forget it.
Wait! Hey, How about this. What if Bits changed the requirements for this forum. Changed it to HTML where to reply to this thread you had to know HTML.. Would you still come here?
Bye
"Z"
Hell no!Wait! Hey, How about this. What if Bits changed the requirements for this forum. Changed it to HTML where to reply to this thread you had to know HTML.. Would you still come here?
Z, we're aren't anti-Zemuss. Just don't agree with your assessment. That's all! What a boring site this would be if we all agreed. So I thank you guys that disagreed with me. That's a learning curve.
Z.. calm down chap.. wasnt attacking you personally, soz if it looked that way... I apologise for the undue agression in my post (tired and cranky!!) you are certainly welcome to your opinion.
Making Linux easier doesnt remove the oppurtunity to learn and to tinker, it just keeps it where it (IMO) belongs, for the techies who want to play, and why would you want to stop keeping it open source ? there would still be techies who want to look at and tinker with the code and hell yes some would like to know how they went about making life easier on the users. When you are in a situation where you have to write a program for the general users, making it user friendly is one of the major thrusts of the development cycle of any major app.
But there is no reason for the techies to stop normal people who DO just want an OS so they can print reports and run games, an easier to use yet open source and highly tweakable linux would surely appeal to both types of people in much the same way that Windows XP does.
You could easily provide even the install of linux with an "Easy" and an "Advanced" option choice - techies can learn all they want by doing it the classic way and people who just want to get the thing running with the minimum of hassle can let a setup script/wizard do the work...
I personally look forward to the day when Linux is as easy to use as Windoze, for one reason - it will then be very definite competition for Bill Gates.
And if you get off on trying a learning curve (which I do, incidentally, when I have the time) and proving to yourself how clever you are, just run Linux in text mode. Now that should tax most people's grey matter.
And remember, there's a significant number of folks who have trouble finding there way round a Microsoft OS...
Actually competition isn't the word i'd use. Linux would dominate at that point. Assuming that by easy to use as Windows you mean that all the games/apps/driver work. It would be free and do everything that an OS costing £100 more!Originally posted by floppybootstomp
I personally look forward to the day when Linux is as easy to use as Windoze, for one reason - it will then be very definite competition for Bill Gates.
I've seen this argumet before here and it's always an ugly one. To me it seems that both camps can't see the middle ground. i.e. you can have an OS for both techies and genral users. Windows XP is a suprising example of this. It is very user freindly as OSs go. Yet it is also a very powerfull OS. You can get down and dirty with the system if you do a little research. People like to bring up the car comparisson on this topic and with good reason. The modern car is a great example of how you can have an easy to use interface with good access to to the core components. If you want to get from A to B, stick the key in the ignigtion and drive. If you want to change the oil, put new tyres on, then it's easy to do that to.
Supporting users who just want to use something and supporting 'geeks' or techies are not mutually exclusive properties a system has.
I'd also like to comment on the issue of laziness that was brought up. People seem to confuse laziness with a desire for things to be easy. Watching the same chanel on TV because the remote is AWOL is lazy. Using the remote to change the channel in not lazy, it's doing something in an easier and more efficeient way. Humans are always trying to make things more efficent so that they can go and do other things. If this wasn't true, we'd still be hunting with bits of wood. It's ok for something to be easy as long as you go and find something that is hard to do or solve. Computers becoming easier to use has allowed other people to use them and make great discoveries with them. Please don't say that things would be better another way.
SEAT Leon Cupra R, for those who believe in driving
my point exactly MD.. easy to use doesnt have to imply a lack of depth
Your link is broken btw...
Enough outta me for awhile..
YOu guys made your point. And I am wrong...
Who shale I Bow too?
Oh HALe! To the almighty ones! HALE!
TypicalOriginally posted by KaraK
Your link is broken btw...
Hey Z, i mentioned no name, and was talking in genral but i do disagree with your point of view. Lets just agree to disagree for now ok?
Its ok.
Like they say...... OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES! EVERYONE HAS ONE!
"Z"
You are missing my point mate... I'm not saying progress is bad, but I am saying that progree promotes laziness! It does, it's a fact! Every progression we've made has been to make things easier and more "user friend", more plug and play, if you will. Now that is a good thing... WHEN you have your mindset "one should know how to maully do arithematic with pen and paper before calculators are introduced" That mindset has not been kept by the masses though. People have become lulled into a zomblie like state. There really isn't that tinkerer mentality to learn and know whats going on anymore. So it's actually a paradox... we learn so that we can develop higher technology but the higher the technology the dumber we become.Originally posted by Techvillage
I have no issue with Linux being made "dumber" providing it doesn't affect the speed and stability of it. (for those using a gui)
I can't see the reason of people who don't like things made easy.
To go back to Leo example with the car - is having a wind up window better than an electric?
People who don't like Linux made easier - why do they want to stop it progressing - is that not letting it run it's development path. Like who ever made anything to be difficult, or not progress on purpose. Damn - I think we should all be using an abacus to add up as using calculators is rotting our brains!
(now before anybody says something - I'm a firm beliver in arithematic - one should know how to maully do arithematic with pen and paper before calculators are introduced)
And a roll up window is better than electric... electric breaks and then when its raining and you can't get the bloody thing up, you have to drive with the window down! Ive had shit like that happen to me many a time. and if anything a roll up window will keep the monkey flogging arm in great shape!
BeeZ
Oh and come to #bitbenderforums to rag on zemuss every night!jk
Well buy a decent car then. I have never heard of an electric window breaking, they are just too reliable these days. Plus they are safer i.e. you can't choke a person on many of the newer models since they have sensors detect if there is an obstruction ans roll the window back up.Originally posted by BobBeezer
And a roll up window is better than electric... electric breaks and then when its raining and you can't get the bloody thing up, you have to drive with the window down! Ive had shit like that happen to me many a time. and if anything a roll up window will keep the monkey flogging arm in great shape!
decent shmecent! The cars Ive been in when it happened we well beyond decent: 1993 Cadillac Coupe De Ville, 2000 Nissan Maxima, a Lex and a Beemer... all of which at some point or another had some shite go wrong with the window mid use.
Also, you have to roll the handle several rotations to roll a window up to choke someone, whereas you could lean on a button and choke someone. If you're rolling up a window on someones neck, you're doing it on purpose (ala Bullet Tooth Tony from Snatch!)
BeeZ
Glad someone is kinda on myside... Thanks BEz
"Z"
I think we should change BobBezzers title to 'Destroyer of of electric windows'
And Zemuss should be called 'Caveman'
Hehe, hey man I don't destroy em, they just break! Now catcorp and his computer part destroying madness... that's a goal to strive for!
BeeZ:nuke2:
Ok, we can continue this debate on laziness in the modern world, and the use of a roll down window... but back on subject...
Linux having corporate backing... aka: the dollars to take down M$. Well here's an interesting article...
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?.../01/30/1454220
BeeZ
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