Yes, good move IA. I was at home between jobs doing a little paperwork with the TV on in the background when I noticed a newsflash.
I immediately thought that some forum members lived in New York and just made a quick post. Wasn't really sure which section to post it in really.
The full horror is now unfolding. I honestly don't know what to say.
Reports are saying the transponders on the planes were turned off by the terrorists so radar couldn't track their altitude, etc.
My question is: Why is there even a switch to turn off the transponder on an commerical airplane? Sounds like a design flaw?
Pardon my ignorance, I'm trying to analyze all of this.
IA: I'm no expert on aviation matters, but there may not even be a switch. The terrorists may have done their homework and simply disabled the transponders by breaking it. Just a thought.
Good question. That would explain why the FAA and more importantly, the Air Force, didn't take notice of the sudden change of flight course.
However, there were upwards of 30 cell phone calls from passengers in the hijacked planes during the incidents to different county authorities, but it seemed like nobody reacted/took seriously the situation that was going on in the air, or the unfateful consequences that were to follow. The Air Force has a response time of 11 minutes from call to take off, so flight 911 wouldn't have survived, but the other 3 crashes didn't have to happen! Damn, the stupid county sheriffs. I'm having a heart attacking thinking about the "if"s.
And if the hijackers were infact using ceramic and plastic knives, why didn't any of the passengers say "screw you moflicker" and rush the evil bastards? Except maybe the last flight. Ah, shit, having a migraine and stroke all together now.
Life is an unrelenting comedy. Therein lies the tragedy of it. - Martin Stillwater
Dude, check out my DVD Collection!
again I'm no aviation expert but a possible reason for having the option to disable a transponder would be in the case where it was producing erroneous data which could mess up ATC and cause an accident.
*shrug*
Although to be honest I think flops has already hit on the most likely soloution.
"I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell"
correct me if I'm wrong but I didnt think the passengers on the first two jets knew what the hijackers were planning. I was under the impression from news reports that I've seen that they might have thought it was a normal hijacking.Originally posted by AmStoned
Good question. That would explain why the FAA and more importantly, the Air Force, didn't take notice of the sudden change of flight course.
However, there were upwards of 30 cell phone calls from passengers in the hijacked planes during the incidents to different county authorities, but it seemed like nobody reacted/took seriously the situation that was going on in the air, or the unfateful consequences that were to follow. The Air Force has a response time of 11 minutes from call to take off, so flight 911 wouldn't have survived, but the other 3 crashes didn't have to happen! Damn, the stupid county sheriffs. I'm having a heart attacking thinking about the "if"s.
And if the hijackers were infact using ceramic and plastic knives, why didn't any of the passengers say "screw you moflicker" and rush the evil bastards? Except maybe the last flight. Ah, shit, having a migraine and stroke all together now.
I might be way off base with this, remember I'm only getting fragments of news here and there.
This strikes me as odd though because the news braodcast the actual radar shots of the plane turing around and heading towards NYC. Maybe they couldnt get to the plane in time to do anything. Who knows. hindsight is always 20/20, and all these ifs are killing me. Also guys, please say a prayer for all the firemen and police officers who have been MIA since the rescue attempts began.
BeeZer
To keep this post small, here's a link to some basics on transponders for those with questions about them
http://www.avweb.com/articles/transpon.html
Not just speaking for myself, but I think everyone's prayers are for all fireman, police and people that are missing. All we can do is keep on praying that there are more people to come out alive.
A prayer for the fallen service men and women in NYC for their bravery, their dedication to duty, and for risking their lives. There goes my heroes.
Karak:
As always, hijackers are insane. I know what you mean. The first thing the comes to your mind if the plane's hijacked would be, "Oh great, where do these crazies what to go know." And surely, nobody in this world, except for the bastards who planed this, wouldn't have ever known this would be the late flight they would take, slamming into a huge concrete structure.
But you're right, everyone thought it was just a "friendly" detour flight take over.
Man, the damn airlines should put some stealthy ninjas on the plane to prevent things like this from happening. Ninjas would be very good, since you can open fire on a plane, the flight attendents are always first on the victims list, and nobody's brave enough to stand up to the damn terrorists. I'm dead serious people.
Although there have already been many cries for retaliation, (myself included) an interesting point was raised in the Times here in the UK. If we do retailate, it is likley that all we will do is galvanise the arabs against the West and give even greater support to the radical groups. If we publicy forgive and make a point of how much better we are, re-build and get back to our prosprus lives, it will show to these people how impotent they are against democracy and how vunrable they are, eventully ending support for the radicals who carry out these attacks.
Of course these actions will be unpopular. If we do decide that we must strike back, it must be nothing short of an all out effort. The total destruction of these nations which support terrorists. Not only this, but they must be contained within whereever they are located, and allowed no access with the outside world. This would be a massive and costly undertaking but absolutly esential if we are to prevent any further attacks.
The price of freedom is eternal vigalance.
SEAT Leon Cupra R, for those who believe in driving
I'm not sure what you're saying here dog, are you saying that the countries SHOULD be anhilated or the opposite ? cos going and bombing the shit out of a country cos of the acts a few would be insane and itself an act of terrorism. Any action taken would have to be directed with extreme precision at only those responsible or to some extent those who have directly aided them.Originally posted by Mad dog
Although there have already been many cries for retaliation, (myself included) an interesting point was raised in the Times here in the UK. If we do retailate, it is likley that all we will do is galvanise the arabs against the West and give even greater support to the radical groups. If we publicy forgive and make a point of how much better we are, re-build and get back to our prosprus lives, it will show to these people how impotent they are against democracy and how vunrable they are, eventully ending support for the radicals who carry out these attacks.
Of course these actions will be unpopular. If we do decide that we must strike back, it must be nothing short of an all out effort. The total destruction of these nations which support terrorists. Not only this, but they must be contained within whereever they are located, and allowed no access with the outside world. This would be a massive and costly undertaking but absolutly esential if we are to prevent any further attacks.
The price of freedom is eternal vigalance.
Try and clarify your post for me a bit pls...
MD:
I agree... if this were a perfect world. But unfortunately in this sick world, evil would see that as a weakness and would go for more attacks, killing more innocent lives. But I also agree that if there is retaliation, it needs to be complete all out effort, to truely erradicate the enemies of democracy, freedom, and justice.
BeeZer
TIMES Magazine is issuing a special edition on Sept. 13th...this is the first time in the magazine's history that the familiar red border of the magazine had been changed to black.
May the souls rest and be free of the evil in this world...
MD:
I totally understand what you're saying. The best way to defeat evil and vanquish the evil within these terrorists is to forgive. But there are times when the evil deeds dealt by these individuals are so horrific and demonic, even God would strike lightning upon them.
Vengeance will only bring upon endless suffering to the innocent.But if we don't, the victims (especially the service men and women) will die in vain.
Last edited by AmStoned; 09-12-2001 at 11:55 PM.
i am at a loss for words, just wanted to check in and see what was said. lurch
Ugh, seeing that TIME cover, is bringing all the pain and tears welling back to the surface.
BeeZer
The Media certainly know how to "jump on the band wagon" here in the UK not one paper missed a trick in getting your attention with the dramatic headlines.
I watched "News Night" on the BBC last night, Jeremy was on the ball as usual but there were some constructive answers to a lot of his questions. Again we were showen the people dancing in the streets of Palestine, followed by some Pakistan people cheering.
I was also very saddened to see outside the hospitals staff waiting for “casualties” that are never going to arrive; my heart is very heavy as my eyes swell with tears. Keep your chin up folks you’re NOT alone.
As the days, maybe months, go on, hopefully we will have those much-needed answers.
Neil.
For those who do not know a lot about Mr. Bin Laden (who is the suspected mastermind) here is a link to the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...000/155236.stm
I just saw two news stories that Bin Laden is in custody. I don't know if it's by Afghanistan or someone else.
Also, I have heard that the Taliban officials have dispersed due to expected retaliation from the US.
....gave proof through the night that our flag was still there
well..... so much to say of the horrific events that occured last Tuesday.
I was at a show in NE Ohio about an hour from Cleveland. I had partied way to hard the nite before so I woke up with a roaring headache to begin with. While on the road I usually sleep with the TV on to CNN. This made for some pretty bizzarre dreams as I was waking. My wife called me about 9am before the second plane hit and it was during our phone call that I watched the second plane slam into the tower. Headache just got worse as the enormity of what just happened sunk in. As I sat there and listened to the reports I heard that the plane was from Boston to Los Angeles. PANIC. My mother and her husband were in boston and were returning to LA, but I wasnt sure when. (ok chastise me for not keeping track of my mom) I called her at home no answer. more panic. I than called my sister. she was still asleep and a bit groggy when I asked if mom had flown home. "yeah, why?" I than told her to flip on the news. This woke her up. during our call she had another call that was her former base commander telling her she may get reactivated (she is/was an Army medic) So long story short I was able to talk to mom and determine my family was safe.
While my first reaction was to carpet bomb the hell out of the Palestinians and Afghans for this and than wait for an hour for them to feel somewhat relieved that the worst was over an than NUKE them into the largest sheet of glass the world will ever see, I realized this would only be stooping to their level.
The attacks, however attrocious and heinous, were aimed at the two or three symbols [assumiing that the White HOuse was a target at one point] of the financial and military oppression of the United States upon these people. We dont see that but it is their view. The WTC buildings are/were seen as the symbol of the weatlh of the US and how we use it not only against them but also merely in the excess of wealth that we have. [Keep in mind that Bin Laden's sect was very much against the accumulation of wealth as they feel it is in violation of the Koran]. The Pentagon is the symbol of the most powerful military force in the world. The White House, while not hit, was and is the symbol of Democracy and freedom for most of the free world.
Certainly there were lapses in the intelligence community that might have forseen these tragic events but there is simply no way anyone could have stopped these events. These are men who can only be referred to as madmen. The knew they would die in their tasks and were willing to do so. We, the US, did recieve a communique from Bin Ladens forces three weeks ago. The appropriate steps were taken to protect our citizens overseas. Why we didnt do this in the US is very simple, terrorism in the US is/was unheard of until now. We can only go with what we know. Up until Sept 11, 2001, terrorists had pretty much forgone action in the US because of the chance of waking the sleeping bear that is the US military and justice systems. Bin Laden has choosen to wake that bear, and may Allah have mercy on his soul as the US will not.
I ask all of you to stop for a moment and think. Is the suspension of our morals, ethics and justice sysem, even if only for the day it takes to nuke Afghanistan or other countries with Bin Laden links, worth it? Can we as a nation stoop to their level? Do we want to? This country has been founded on principles that cannot be taken lightly. I am extremely proud of America and would be saddened if we were to ignore those morals, ethics and principles that are America. I will be the first to agree that this is not a case for the Court sytsems but rather the military but NOT without solid information.
On the topic of why we didnt do something aobut the hijacked planes as soon as we realized they were hijacked. There are no options that would have stopped these men from doin what they did. We cannot shoot down the hijacked plane. No matter how much we think we should. The taking of our citizens lives by our government is tantamount to anarchy. At the time I am sure that the controllers and the other gov agencies involved felt it was a "normal" hijacking. The procedure of which is to get them to land the plane and than wait for demands and work from there. No one could have foretold what they were going to do.
Putting Armed gaurds on planes as a deterrent from further hijackings is not a good idea. Not only would ti be extremely costly but the risk involved would be to great. I have heard on this and other boards the comment asking how they got the weapons on board. I say very simple. I personally have had knives on my person and gotten on board aircraft. It is and always has been percieved as no real or major threat. Part of that is our sense of comfort and safety.
I think that in this case the terrorists won the battle. They have made us change our way of life. That is one of the goals of terrorism. We shall forever be changed by this. In so many different ways we have lost sense of comfort and safety. As a society we will now enact new restrictions upon our freedoms. Again, this is a loss for us but a victory for those who perpertrated this.
I realize I have written a lot here and my goal is not to defend or go lightly on those responsible but rather to ask everyone to think carefully about what we do. I know that some of you will flame me. I can understand that. I will have dialogue with anyone who cares to about this. My views are sometimes radical but that is part of me.
My heart and soul goes out to the thousands who lost their lives, to the family who have lost loved ones and to the country as we struggle to recover and move on with our lives and country.
TheHeretic
Last i heard, bin laden or as i've heard alot of people call him latley, bin head :p was under house arrest. I haven't heard any confirmed reports of this yet.
To all those who replied to my last post, these are what i think are two of the options the west has, based on what i have read in the times and on my own thoughts on the situation based on historical evidence.
I am in no way saying that these are the actions that should be taken.
KaraK you where wondering if i though total annhilation of a nation is nessecary even though it is extremly evil, well yes, if that is the path we are to take. Any country harboring terrorists or refusing to allow NATO forces to enter their land to hunt them down will really have to be annhialted. It's the only way we can ensure this will never happen again. It's a very blunt and messy way to do it, but thats the way the world is. If we aren't ready to follow through and go all the way, desptie the rediculus loss of human life then we might as well do nothing. If we want to preserve our freedom, then this is the price we must pay. (Think back to hiroshma and Nagasaki. That much death wasn't really needed to achieve military victory but it was the only way for a total victory)
I hope i'm amking myself clear here if not ask again and i'll try to explain some more.
Heretic…
Great thought has gone into your post; I do admire your strength and restraint. God bless You.
The images of that post are not showing up danball, you know why?
BeeZer
Damn, Danball, my eyes welled right up there.
The Heretic: I would second what Mucks said, no flame from me. My initial reaction was out and out military action, as declared in one of my earlier posts here.
It's the sheer frustration of having no tangible target to hit that makes this thing all the harder to tolerate.
A blitzkrieg may well start WW3, would lose the Western alliance any sympathy from many countries and could lead to the loss of many more lives in the free democratic countries.
Now I've had time to consider, I think Bush is pursuing the right tactics so far. Intelligence gathering, patience, revenge.
And it never hurts to look at and try and understand the enemy's point of view. But even if I fully understood that point of view I would never, ever, sympathise with it.
BTW, tomorrow is an official day of mourning in Europe. Three minutes silence at 11am.
GOOD NEWS
THIS AFTERNOON 5 NYC FIREMEN WERE DUG-UP,IN A SUV.ALL 5 ARE WELL,2 GOT OUT UNDER THIER OWN POWER.
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those who wander are lost ....
Yep, cought that one on the Beeb, it is truly amazing how some things turn out.
the people coming together is a truly wonderful thing, i just hope that people don't foget about it in a month, life on si is still a ghost town, people are being encouraged to go to work school, not allow our way of life to be ended and to forge ahead, but fear and disbelief is in the air, false stories are popping up of non-existent threats locally, one day at a time i guess, lurch
It looks like my family hasn't gone unscathed afterall. Like I said earlier we have a big family and all precincts haven't reported in so to speak. My mothers first cousin's son who is my age worked on the 92 florr of the wtc and hasn't been heard from since the attack. So his mom has kinda given up hope. Tho I didn't know him all that well my emotions are running high about all thsi.
Dramen: You and your family have my deepest sympathies.
James: I heard about the firemen as well - some of the best news I've heard in some time.
MD: My brain is still not working well on this right now. Thanks for your patience with me. I'll give you a call soon and we'll chat. I'm away for the weekend but I'll try get in touch on Monday.
I doubt I'll be able to get 'net access again until Monday now so I wont be around on the forums but that doesn't mean I wont be thinking of all of our members who have been affected by this. So take care lurch,Beezer,Dramen,James(plus anyone I've forgotten to mention here)
The FBI has just arrested 8 people of Arabic decent from JFK and LaGuardia airports. These men were holding fake IDs and tried to get on board. One of the flight is going from JFK to LAX.
I can't believe the mother fuckers are trying to do it again. Man, the authorities should just skin a couple of them alive on the spot.
As previously reported, Sony has pulled the SPIDER-MAN teaser trailer from theaters as well as the film's website. The trailer featured the WTC's towers prominently.
Now, word comes that the film's advance poster will also be pulled given the images of those same buildings.
Columbia's president of marketing for the Columbia TriStar marketing group commented on the moves, saying, "The decision was an easy one. It's based on humanity. No cost of editing can outweigh the sensitivity of the issue." (taken from: http://www.cinescape.com)
What a crock of shit this is!!
That is more disrespectful to the people who died in those buildings! I have friends myself who are gone now in those towers, and I still in a state of confusion and pain, but to not acknowledge their exsistance like that! Them editing those proud buildings from the movie is a slap in the face to the men and women who built those beautiful towers, and the men and women who died when they came down. If you guys can write into Sony, please convey this message.
BeeZer
I hadn't planned on coming online again tonite but after doing a bit of blubbering as I have on and off for the last few days watching all this human suffering, I thought to myself that I wanted to let everyone here know that I didn't make that post about my missing relative for any attention or sympathies from anyone. That would cause me to feel ashamed since I hardly knew him, but still I wanted or needed to share it. My tears are for all those who perished and their families, as I know yours are. This is a tradgedy for us all, not just americans, as we now know many of your brothers and sisters from several countries have died also. So being an emotional bloke I felt compeled to relay my bad news, and being human some of my sorrow is for myself I know, but it would cause me true embarassment if any thought that I wanted sympathies for myself. I share with you all the sorrow, bewilderment and anger for this horrible tradgedy.
dramen i am truly sorry that you have lost a family member.
naturally my first fears were for my family and friends, but dramen is correct, and so many people have been hurt by this, and i pray for all of them. lurch
I am also sorrowed by your loss.
ABC just reported that 10 people have now been arrested at those 2 airports including 1 woman, also that some policemen(about 10) have been found alive but not dug out yet.
I am deeply moved by the loss of family and friends from people all across our nation and especially here on the forums because of the nature of our community here on the net.
Yeah Ally... the internet has an amazing social structure to it. All of us who have never met have all poured in with concern and prayers for each other, when you step back and look at it, it's an amazing tool for bringing people together. I'm glad Im on this forum and that I got to get to know you chaps. Stay safe, all of you!
BeeZer
Well, I've decided I need to do something, so I'll be heading into Manhattan to volunteer tomorrow. I need to do something, I hope all of you say a prayer tomorrow at 12:30, whereever you may be. And pray for the rescuers and the people that are still trapped beneath the rubble that they may still have a chance to be saved. Wish me luck tomorrow, and wish everyone involved luck.
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