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Thread: New rig984 days old

  1. #1
    purple headed ppl eater prod's Avatar
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    New rig

    Hey guys, been a while, but Ive wandered back in here.
    I havent put together a nice machine in a few years now, figure I better do it now before I forget how.

    This is what I have so far, got a great deal on the mobo/cpu combo, thats what got me goin again.
    More parts to come.


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    Hell's Very Own Grogan's Avatar
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    Hi Prod, nice to see you again. Good luck on the new build!

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    PooliiteeCally Derisive Bastage BitBender's Avatar
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    Hi Prod - Good to see you!

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    Posting Deity Bad Haircut's Avatar
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    That avatar made me LOL. It's a deadringer.

    Nice start for a build.

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    sugar n spikes floppybootstomp's Avatar
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    Hiya prod, promising start to a build you have there - good luck

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    welcome back Prod!

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    Hi Prod, great to see you again, definitely a good start for a new rig. How about a new thread to let us know what's been going on for you in real life?

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    purple headed ppl eater prod's Avatar
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    ok im up and running now. I took the upgraded hard drive, power supply, video card and tv tuner out of the older machine. I hoped to keep it running as a secondary cruncher, but after a few hours it died on me. Looks like maybe a popped capacitor near the cpu. Odd timing, ah well.
    Threw together the new machine and loaded win7-64.
    It seems to be running ok so far at stock speeds, but gets unstable if I clock the ram from 1333 to 1600, which it should be able to handle.
    I just loaded boinc on it and my max core temps are all 78c-80c with stock intel cooler, seems high no? I dont want to start overclocking from there.
    Anyone know if thats normal for this setup?

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    No, 80C is not normal. Core temp sensors aren't really calibrated though... it may not really be that hot. Many claim that the DTS is more accurate but I don't think they know what the word means. It is certainly more precise (being a Digital Thermal Sensor) but fat lot of good that does you without known baseline values. (e.g. it does no good for me to read the delta from the register and measure 71.097562 degrees when that value is garbage in the first place. That's not accuracy)

    What does your motherboard's thermal diode CPU sensor say? (The one that the bios and fan control uses etc.) It won't be that accurate (losses along the way), or precise but at least it's calibrated for the range of temperatures it's meant for.

    My i7's core temps will show in the high 70's sometimes if I've got all 8 CPU threads blazing during a big compile job, but the CPU sensor on the motherboard is only reading 60 or 61C at that time, and the fan speed gets increased to 2000 rpm and it stays stable there. It also cools down very quickly when activity is reduced even intermittently. (so I know the cooler is working)

    The DTS in the cores are meant for one thing and one thing only. To determine when the maximum temperature is reached (usually 100C for most models, some 85C, some 105C) so the CPU can shut itself off. That doesn't mean it's not harmful to run up to 100C, just that it's the absolute emergency shutdown value. Intel released specs so that sensor could be accessed, but using it to read degrees in that range (e.g. 30 to 105C) is unintended use. The ONLY known calibration is that maximum value (Tjmax) and everything else is calculated from a delta and is irrelevant (to Intel). In fact before Nehalem, core temp programs had to make an educated GUESS at what Tjmax is. (With newer Intel CPUs, the known value is stored in a register)

    You definitely need a better cooler than stock if you are going to overclock though. But you know that.

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    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Temps like that are not unheard of for some people running 100%/24/7 but I prefer to see things in the 40-50C range. Even a stock cooler should be able to give a better loaded temperature than what you got there. What thermal compound are you running and how did you apply it? Things are a bit different now with the newer high viscosity pastes than with the old runny gear.
    Power is something that should be given to those who need it to serve and withheld from those who seek it to rule.

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    purple headed ppl eater prod's Avatar
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    the stock heatsink had a reddish compound preapplied. I have some arctic silver around here somewhere, but that stuff dries out over time.
    I probably will get some new stuff and reseat the cooler.
    In the meantime I bumped up the cpu fan about 200rpm in the bios, that dropped core temps about 8degC. Its running about 60%, so theres still room for more.

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    The stock thermal compound is usually pretty bad IMHO Prod, I've got some AS running on my secondary rig for around 6 years now and temps are still solid, been OC'd for 6 years now.

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    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Drying compound is a good sign that you're getting air in your mount. I'd recommend ICDiamond as the best of the currently available paste style compounds. Definitely a solid performer and extremely stable under heavy load. Bit of a PIA on a system with phase-change cooling though.

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    I see now that there are cheaper liquid cooling systems too. The coolermaster h100 looks to be a good option. Man, the list just keeps getting longer.

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    Update:
    Temps started creeping back up toward 80c, so I remounted the heatsink with new thermal paste, the original stuff that came on the heatsink looked terrible. However that made no difference, so I picked up an aftermarket cooler, Zalman 9900max.
    Wow, big difference! My cpu temps under full load went from 80c down to 46c. Now I can start thinking about overclocking.

    Heres a few pics, before and after the heatsink swap:











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    Thermal paste can be awkward shit, takes some experimenting to get it to work optimally. I'd leave it a while before you start OCing, let the thermal paste / cooler / chip settle down and just keep an eye on the temps for a month. Lookin' good.

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    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Hard to say for sure, but it looks like there was air in the original mount. That will eventually cause the mount to pump out the compound and the mount will fail. The more you expect out of your mount (higher heat loads from overclocking or extended lifespans) the fussier you have to be with it. I'm surprised at the size of that original heat sink, though. Doesn't look nearly big enough to cope. Good call on the new cooler.
    Just looking at that case, it wouldn't hurt to whack an intake fan on there. If noise is an issue the Noctua fans are a good choice, if a little dearer than some others.

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    Yeah I tried remounting the original sink 3 times, leaving it for a couple days for testing, but it didnt seem to help. I guess intel thinks 80c is fine, or they dont expect people to run full time?
    I used some artic silver compound I still had, it always seemed to do ok. I try to do a decent job applying and then seating the heatsink.


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    Looks awesome! Being in the desert southwest, I always go with big arse HSF's so I have a stack of those OEM Intel coolers. They are good for quick bench testing of stuff

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    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Ok, that application method right there ... NO! That mount WILL fail with a modern processor. DON'T do that!! That stopped being a useful technique when we stopped using silicon based thermal compound.

    THE best application method for high performance AND reliability:
    Put a blob of compound in the middle of the heat spreader about half the size of a regular pea. No swirls, no flourish just a half sphere blob about a quarter inch across. Next press the cooler down vertically on top of it and tighten the mounts evenly and firmly. No twisting, no rocking, just straight down. Anything else WILL trap air in the mount and cause poor performance and early failure.

  21. #21
    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Here's some pictures demonstrating the issues: http://www.innovationcooling.com/app...structions.htm

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    Posting Deity Bad Haircut's Avatar
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    And yet I had such crap results doing that using AS5 and a Core™ chip I ended up wasting a chunk. It wasn't too bad when the older quad core chips used to heat up and you'd get some capillary action going. I ended up using the old credit card trick; blob in the middle, and smearing outwards to the edges and getting a wafer thin uniform coat and placing directly on top and bolting down. Takes times fannying about doing that but it's the only thing that would work ultimately.

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    Aye, that's how we used to apply it back when we were applying it directly to the core, before they had full chip heat spreaders over um.

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    AS5 is well known for needing several thermal cycles (ie cycled from ambient to full 100% load temp several times) or having to run at 100% load for a couple of days continuously before it would settle in properly.

    After being a part of the release study for the ICD compound I've never used another method, nor will I, though I am currently using a different product (hard to get ICD in Auz if you don't know where to look). Every mount that failed using this method during the study was found to have poor mount pressure (tested using pressure film and returned to an independent company for developing) or the tester used a different application method, lied about it and was only caught out when they provided pictures for something else.

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    I'm glad you got the temps down Prod, an intake and exhaust fan will keep fresh air moving over that new heatsink though, give it some thought.

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    Im still running an open case ATM. I plan on putting a front intake fan in the lower optical bays, blowing right on the cpu cooler. A rear fan is possible too if needed.
    However I may get another more modern case eventually as this one is at least 15yrs old, plucked from the trash and then modded.

    As to the application of the thermal compound, I may well be behind the times there.
    The central blob procedure always seemed right to me, squeezing the paste to the edges and forcing out the air. However everywhere I read about it preached the credit card even film method, so I used that.
    Now years later, has it gone the other way? It seems to me it would depend on viscosity of the compound. In the early years it was pretty thick stuff, so it required spreading. I suppose these days they make it more runny, to have as thin a film as possible. I would think the thinner the stuff is, the easier it is to spread to the edges just by mounting the heatsink on a central blob. I may try that too, I will give it some time and see if the AS5 stays stable, increases or decreases the temps. In the past I do remember it dropping a couple degrees over time.

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    Hell's Very Own Grogan's Avatar
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    To mitigate that "break in" period for AS5, they are saying to use a credit card to spread some on both mating surfaces, then using a lint free cloth to buff it off again. (Don't use cleaner or you remove the film you are trying to deposit). After that, they advocate placing a bead of it in the right spot, then pushing down and twisting the heat sink a little to spread it and get rid of the air. (They have CPU specific instructions)

    That's how I've been doing it lately for myself and others. I just make sure the heat sink is mounted correctly and the compound is applied correctly (watch temps for a while, generate some CPU activity, watch it cool etc.) then I get on with my life. All the cooling apparatus really needs to do is keep your CPU within a safe operating temperature range. Different if you are an enthusiast and your temperatures are a matter of pride or something, but for us ordinary users, it works fine.

    I know that AS5 lasts at least 2 years (and counting). That's about how long I've mounted a CPU with it. My guess would be that it should last indefinitely (long enough).

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    Slightly unbalanced Dark Angel's Avatar
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    Prod, the ICD stuff I mentioned is thicker than anything else I've ever used and gave me the best temps I ever got on the hardware I tested it on. It's just a shame that all I had was a test sample. It's only recently that anyone here carries the stuff and I still have to get it from eBay even then. The next lot I buy will be ICD, no question, and the biggest tube I can get, too.

    G's right, in the end it's really about things being within spec and my pissing about "precise application" shouldn't be taken overly seriously.

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    I do anal stuff with my software that most people couldn't be bothered with. (e.g. Compile everything from source just to make sure it's optimal, just in case it does make a difference. A "binary" feels unclean )

  30. #30
    sugar n spikes floppybootstomp's Avatar
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    Prod, my setup is similar to yours, difference being the cooler and case, Antec 90 gamer's case and Noctua cooler. The case has 3 120mm fans (2 @ front and 1 @ rear) and a bigger one at the top of the case, can't remember exact measurement offhand. Just thought you might be interested, my CPU running at stock speed and the Speccy capture was idling temperature but even at full tilt it doesn't go higher than 38C. And all case fans are on lowest setting, for quietness sake.

    And yes, the wiring is a mess but when the case side is on you can't see most of that mess (case side is windowed). Oh, and the temperature shown for the SSD drive is wrong, that's a Speccy software glitch.



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    purple headed ppl eater prod's Avatar
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    Hehe, proof that great minds think alike flops?
    Thats the video card Im looking at getting too.
    Yeah that noctua cooler is a good one, I gave up a few degrees and saved about $30 with mine. Puts me closer to getting the video card. :p

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